On parental discipline
Aug. 1st, 2006 11:31 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
nerwengreenSo I've been getting into a number of arguments today about the proper ways to discipline children and teach them how to behave. I've read through Mace's posts and the comments on them. And I've been thinking.
Here's where I stood before: Children need to be disciplined from time to time. This happens by associating something unpleasant with the doing of something bad. One of the possible unpleasant things is physical punishment. There are a large number of other forms of punishment, such as isolation ("go to your room!" or other forms of timeouts), denial of something (favorite toys, allowance money, going places, food, etc.), stern lectures, etc. To my mind, physical punishment (spankings) are perfectly valid methods in the list of choices. Which discipline method is used should depend on what the child is like. Not everything will apply equally well to all children.
As with any tool, there are ways to use discipline methods properly and also ways to abuse them. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological manipulation and torment, neglect and abandonment, etc. can all happen. It all depends on how and why the parent is doing them.
However, I've never had children of my own. Nor do I spend much time around them. I tend to relate better to teenagers overall, because by that point they have reached a level of maturity that I can speak to. So I don't really know about children younger than that.
In light of a comment on Mace's last post, I started thinking over my own childhood again. How exactly was I ever disciplined? What worked on me? Well, the more I think about it, the harder it is to answer that, because ... I don't think I was ever disciplined properly. Nothing worked. I remember being punished a lot, but I can't think of a single example where I actually learned anything. Why?
Well, let's start with physical punishment. First of all, you're not supposed to hit the child out of anger and frustration, because that's parental venting, not parental teaching. My parents had a tendency to go after me with a stick (any stick within easy grabbing distance; could've been a toy, could've been a broom, could've been wooden or plastic or metal...), and sometimes they left bruises. I usually knew why they were mad, but the fact that they were trying to beat the crap out of me mostly just made me resent them. Which was obvious in my eyes, and which just made them want to beat me all the more. This is not, to my mind, the way it's supposed to work.
At one point they remarked that my sister escaped punishment because she would capitulate almost immediately and burst into tears. I wasn't interested in that kind of emotional manipulation, even knowing that it was possible. Tried it once, it worked, left a bad aftertaste. So I took the severe beatings instead, and kept my sense of integrity.
When we were very young, there was the "throw out of the house" ploy. Basically, if we were too loud talking to each other after we had allegedly gone to bed, my father would show up and try to throw us out of the house. He would pick us up bodily, and we would cling to doorways and such while pleading for mercy. We would capitulate before he actually reached the back door. This didn't work for long, though, because we eventually caught on that he was never serious. My sister says that he actually did put us outside once, and locked the back door, whereupon we ran to the front door and had to beg our way back in.
There was one other time when I was older (7 or 8, I think), and got put out with the trash. I forget what I did, but I distinctly remember standing there in my winter coat, waiting for the trashman to take me away. When the trashman finally arrived, he thought I was standing out there to greet him and he let me back inside, whereupon I snuck back up to my room while my father was busy talking to him... I don't recall whether I learned anything that time, either.
Then there were the stern lectures. Or the yelling, to be more accurate. And the taking away of things. I remember a few times where I actually tried to tell my mother directly how it made me feel, that all it was doing was making me think of ways to circumvent her, and what exactly would have the desired effect. Of course, all that did was make her more angry. :p And sadly, I can no longer remember the details anymore, other than the fact that I was right and still am. :p
And then in my teen years, there was the return of the "throw out of the house" ploy. I was threatened with eviction and homelessness rather frequently. It never actually happened, but in the back of my mind I was always trying to plan for contingencies in case it ever did.
I guess overall, what I really wanted (and needed) was good, clear explanations of everything. My parents never explained anything to me, discipline or otherwise. Everything was "you're too young to understand and/or care about that." And the older I got, the less clear things became.
Oh wait. I do remember what I said to my mother. I was talking about strategic rewards. Reward for good behavior instead of punish for bad. She didn't go for that one, because she has a philosophy that you don't reward people for doing what they're supposed to do. I guess in practice, what happened was that we were ignored if we were behaving, and given attention (even negative attention) when misbehaving.
And now that I think about that one some more, that makes sense. There was a point in time when I was around seven or so, when my parents suddenly started saying "We're not going to spoil you anymore!" I still don't know where that came from. Maybe someone important said something to them that hit home. All I remember, though, is that all the love went out of the family around then. They stopped caring about anything I did that was positive and right.
I kept a lot of journals as a teenager. Most other people seem to have problems with parents snooping, reading it while the teenager isn't looking, etc. Sometimes being emotionally blackmailed as a result. I didn't have those problems. My parents didn't even know I had them. They just didn't care about me as a person, at all. All they wanted was for me to play the role of "good kid" and that was all.
Anyway. To see if I can come up with some kind of organized conclusion to all this, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm about as far from being a good person to ask about disciplining children as one can get. I sure didn't see any good examples of discipline when I was a child, and I'm not a parent now. And therefore, perhaps none of my opinions should be viewed as valid. Instead I'll go into "be quiet and listen mode" for the duration.
Here's where I stood before: Children need to be disciplined from time to time. This happens by associating something unpleasant with the doing of something bad. One of the possible unpleasant things is physical punishment. There are a large number of other forms of punishment, such as isolation ("go to your room!" or other forms of timeouts), denial of something (favorite toys, allowance money, going places, food, etc.), stern lectures, etc. To my mind, physical punishment (spankings) are perfectly valid methods in the list of choices. Which discipline method is used should depend on what the child is like. Not everything will apply equally well to all children.
As with any tool, there are ways to use discipline methods properly and also ways to abuse them. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological manipulation and torment, neglect and abandonment, etc. can all happen. It all depends on how and why the parent is doing them.
However, I've never had children of my own. Nor do I spend much time around them. I tend to relate better to teenagers overall, because by that point they have reached a level of maturity that I can speak to. So I don't really know about children younger than that.
In light of a comment on Mace's last post, I started thinking over my own childhood again. How exactly was I ever disciplined? What worked on me? Well, the more I think about it, the harder it is to answer that, because ... I don't think I was ever disciplined properly. Nothing worked. I remember being punished a lot, but I can't think of a single example where I actually learned anything. Why?
Well, let's start with physical punishment. First of all, you're not supposed to hit the child out of anger and frustration, because that's parental venting, not parental teaching. My parents had a tendency to go after me with a stick (any stick within easy grabbing distance; could've been a toy, could've been a broom, could've been wooden or plastic or metal...), and sometimes they left bruises. I usually knew why they were mad, but the fact that they were trying to beat the crap out of me mostly just made me resent them. Which was obvious in my eyes, and which just made them want to beat me all the more. This is not, to my mind, the way it's supposed to work.
At one point they remarked that my sister escaped punishment because she would capitulate almost immediately and burst into tears. I wasn't interested in that kind of emotional manipulation, even knowing that it was possible. Tried it once, it worked, left a bad aftertaste. So I took the severe beatings instead, and kept my sense of integrity.
When we were very young, there was the "throw out of the house" ploy. Basically, if we were too loud talking to each other after we had allegedly gone to bed, my father would show up and try to throw us out of the house. He would pick us up bodily, and we would cling to doorways and such while pleading for mercy. We would capitulate before he actually reached the back door. This didn't work for long, though, because we eventually caught on that he was never serious. My sister says that he actually did put us outside once, and locked the back door, whereupon we ran to the front door and had to beg our way back in.
There was one other time when I was older (7 or 8, I think), and got put out with the trash. I forget what I did, but I distinctly remember standing there in my winter coat, waiting for the trashman to take me away. When the trashman finally arrived, he thought I was standing out there to greet him and he let me back inside, whereupon I snuck back up to my room while my father was busy talking to him... I don't recall whether I learned anything that time, either.
Then there were the stern lectures. Or the yelling, to be more accurate. And the taking away of things. I remember a few times where I actually tried to tell my mother directly how it made me feel, that all it was doing was making me think of ways to circumvent her, and what exactly would have the desired effect. Of course, all that did was make her more angry. :p And sadly, I can no longer remember the details anymore, other than the fact that I was right and still am. :p
And then in my teen years, there was the return of the "throw out of the house" ploy. I was threatened with eviction and homelessness rather frequently. It never actually happened, but in the back of my mind I was always trying to plan for contingencies in case it ever did.
I guess overall, what I really wanted (and needed) was good, clear explanations of everything. My parents never explained anything to me, discipline or otherwise. Everything was "you're too young to understand and/or care about that." And the older I got, the less clear things became.
Oh wait. I do remember what I said to my mother. I was talking about strategic rewards. Reward for good behavior instead of punish for bad. She didn't go for that one, because she has a philosophy that you don't reward people for doing what they're supposed to do. I guess in practice, what happened was that we were ignored if we were behaving, and given attention (even negative attention) when misbehaving.
And now that I think about that one some more, that makes sense. There was a point in time when I was around seven or so, when my parents suddenly started saying "We're not going to spoil you anymore!" I still don't know where that came from. Maybe someone important said something to them that hit home. All I remember, though, is that all the love went out of the family around then. They stopped caring about anything I did that was positive and right.
I kept a lot of journals as a teenager. Most other people seem to have problems with parents snooping, reading it while the teenager isn't looking, etc. Sometimes being emotionally blackmailed as a result. I didn't have those problems. My parents didn't even know I had them. They just didn't care about me as a person, at all. All they wanted was for me to play the role of "good kid" and that was all.
Anyway. To see if I can come up with some kind of organized conclusion to all this, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm about as far from being a good person to ask about disciplining children as one can get. I sure didn't see any good examples of discipline when I was a child, and I'm not a parent now. And therefore, perhaps none of my opinions should be viewed as valid. Instead I'll go into "be quiet and listen mode" for the duration.
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no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 08:03 am (UTC)Not everyone has been a parent, but we've all been children.
If we can remember what it felt like for us then, and, more importantly, what would have worked then, we can learn from the mistakes of the former generation and have a good handle on avoiding them with our own kids.
So don't worry about listening and being quiet. Your opinion is just as valid, especially since you even offered an option I had forgotten about.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 06:12 pm (UTC)After continuing to talk about it to yet more people, someone else noted that most people end up being parents that are heavily influenced by their own parents, whether they want to be or not. They either do the same things, or they do the exact opposite, depending on how they felt about their childhood experiences. But their own children might not be like them, and therefore whatever they end up doing may still not be quite right.
Meanwhile, I've thought some more about my own experiences. I think for me it's more that once the punishment started, my focus shifted from "what did I do wrong?" to "How do I get out of this present situation?" and by the time things were over, whatever I'd done in the first place was the last thing on my mind. Instead I would be thinking about "what if I really did get thrown out, what would I do and where would I go?" Or, as happened quite often during the Beatings with the Nearest Stick phase, we would spend a lot of time hiding all the sticks and leaving out only soft objects, in preparation for the next parental storm. Which we never knew when it would happen. I made sure there was a crack between my bed and the wall that was big enough for me to dive into, so that it was harder to hit me. Stuff like that.
So basically, I can't remember any of the reasons behind the punishments because there was never really an association formed between "bad thing done" and "resulting punishment." This is not what should happen during discipline.
On the other hand, I have other memories where the link was very clear between "me doing something" and "resulting unpleasant thing." For example, one time I was sick and threw up in the middle of the night. My mother made me clean it up, even though all I wanted to do was curl up somewhere. Also she turned on all the lights so that my siblings were awake and therefore they were aware of what was going on (we all slept in the same bedroom) which I found humiliating. She didn't do these things to punish, I don't think, just that it was expedient to have the lights on and she didn't want to clean up the puke herself. But thereafter, I was always rather panic-stricken about making it to a toilet before anything came up.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-03 02:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 06:32 pm (UTC)The most common was time out. "Go sit in the chair in the corner and think about what you've down." They set out a little egg timer that clearly showed how much time we had to sit there. If we moved, it was reset. If we screamed about it, it was reset. There was at least one day where each one of us spent the entire day in time out. The real zinger is though, at the end of the time out, we had to have calmed down, and then calmly explain why we thought we were being put in time out. If we were still all emotional then it was back to the chair. A wrong explaination had one of two possible outcomes. If it was obvious we were just lying or trying to circumvent the system, it was back to the chair. If, however, we looked sincere, they would take the time to explain everything, even let us ask questions. This way we understood why our behavior had been inappropreate.
If more drastic measures were needed, they'd threaten to take away toys or privelages. The difference here is when my mom said "You have til 3 to stop or you're grounded," is, when she reached three, I was grounded. Too many parents make empty threats and never back them up, and this teaches their children how to lie, manipulate, and dodge responcibility. If you tell a child that you're going to do something, then you better do it or your going to imprint on them that you dont always do what you say.
The whole parenting thing goes along with my theories about government as well. An effective parent/leader is both loved and feared. Feared in that their authority must be absolute. What you say, you do. One reason why parents need to exercise a lot of selfcontrol. Only make reasonable and fair threats. And ALWAYS back those threats up. That way your children learn that when you say "do/dont do this or else" that if they continue, that or else is not just an empty threat. Consistency is also very important. Never let an incident go, "just this once." The punishment must always be the same for the same incident, and it must always exist. That way the children will EVENTUALLY learn justice and fairness. Also, it will reinforce the absoluteness of the parents 'power.' On the topic of justice and fairess... it is also very important to explain EXACTLY why the child is being punished in ways they understand. More then that, the child should be made to try to figure out why they're being punished, that way they're forced to think, and by thinking, hopefully learn. If they can be made to understand the reason, then they wont be embittered towards the parents, but more often (at least in my case) ashamed of themselves.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 06:32 pm (UTC)However... negative reinforcement isnt the only piece of the puzzle. Nobody loves a tyrant, and people will only do what they need to inorder to escape the tyrants wrath. Inorder to be a GOOD and effective parent, one needs to also be loved, which is a bit trickier. One way is to reward a child for being good. If they're behaving in a store, offer to buy them a pack of gum. Always be sure to compliment them if they show proper manners (or else the child will think "Whats the point in using manners, other then to escape daddies wrath"), and dont be afriad to tell them that they're behaving well, being a good boy/girl, ect ect. Its also very important to thank them if they help you, even if they werent of much help. It's really the thought that counts, so if you can associate positive feelings with things like being helpful, you'll help to raise a compansionate child. Positive reinforcment is better then negative, IMHO. Telling your children you love them and think they're wonderful and special on a regular basis are also very important. This will help reinforce that they are loved and build their self esteem. If there's a large milestone for them approaching, such as pottey training, shoe tying, ect ect, create a chart of sorts for them that lets them track their progress, and give it a goal. Like... "we'll take you out some place special when you learn your abc's," or "if you make your bed everyday for 3 months, we'll buy you ." Something that will give them a goal to work towards so they can learn how to set goals, make plans, stick to the plan, and see it through towards the end. Maybe they're just in it for the toy... but they are still learning. The largest pitfall of positive reinforcement is the same one for negative reinforcement, consistency. If you say you're going to do something, you have to do it or else the child will learn to doubt your word, or worse, might feel unloved. Thus, only make promises you know you can keep. If they ask you something like "Are you coming to my baseball game," and you fear you might have to work, tell them the truth. "I will try my best sweety. I might have to work, but im going to go talk to my boss and see if i can get that night off." ect ect. And then follow through. The other pitfall to avoid is spoiling the child. This occurs when the child gets everything they want. This is another positive effect of the goalsetting system. If the child only recieves a toy after they've done some kind of work (chores for x number of , or making a milestone), then they will learn that inorder to get things, they need to work. In instances where they ask you for something... say a toy or a game, try to bargain with them instead of just giving it to them. Offer an exchange of work for money, then let them buy it (with you watching). never ask anything too hard of them, make it simple things like daily chores (pet care, cleaning, proper hygene), or maybe help with a project. It's also important to have them help you with something where the only reward they recieve is a "thank you." This way they dont come to make the association that work will ALWAYS get them a toy or candy. Just besure that you dont promise them anything first. Suprises can also be good, as long as they're rare. If they've been behaving for a good amount of time, plan to take them to a water park (or something similar... growing up next to the dells has paritally skewed my ideas of how nearby waterparks are for most people..), then tell them around dinner, "Since you've been so good, tomorrow we're going to take a family trip to ." Trips arent special though, make sure to reinforce the ideas of manners and proper behavior. If they misbehave, threaten to take them home, and if they continue, do so. Consistency is extremely important. To continue postive growth, it's also important to support and encourage them in their pursuits. Even if you might not be into something they like, still encourage them and try to offer help where you can. Talk to them about all kinds of things, show you enjoy spending time with them. Include them in activities and dont ignore them.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 06:32 pm (UTC)The last major point in my experiance is example. You should do your best to follow the same rules you set out for your children. This means how you behave, how you speak, and what you do. You dont want your children to see you as a hypocrit, and in most cases, they will try to imitate you. Thus, they need a positive example. If they see their parents as moral, upstanding people, then they will try to be the same. Hey, parenting is ALOT of work and should never be taken on lightly. It requires a lot of selfcontrol and selflessness. You cannot lose your cool and you need to learn to bite your lip and NOT insult them back... even if they tell you you're "mean, horrible," and "I hate you". They Dont mean it, they're just lashing out. If they do say such a thing, once they've settled down and are on the explaining phase, inform them that they hurt your feelings when they called you names or said they hate you, and be sincere about it. Actually i found it was really effective when the other parent approached me and told me "You hurt daddy's/mommy's feeligns when you said that. Now they're sad. You should go apologize." This way they learn NOT to say those things without being belittle. One can easily out shout or insult a child... there is no honor in trying to beat them at that. Also, save yelling for last ditch senarios... it will be needed, but your neighbors and your voice will thank you if you only yell as a last ditch senario. Remaining calm is important in setting a good example. The exact execution will vary from person to person, but i believe these are very important ingredients in raising children. They've all been present in children that i've seen raised properly, and missing in broken homes, spoiled children, and broken children.
I was never hit as a child, so im against physical punishment. Could also be that, as a martial artist, I see physical force as a weapon and have taken an oath to use it only to defend people. I used to play fight and wrestle with my dad, and through that i learned that is physical wrath, if released, would have been terrible, but he never lay a hand on us. It was always his view that he was our protector, and that a protector should not harm those he protects as it creates a feeling of helplessness for the child, which unchecked, can lead to depression. The other problem with physical force is that eventually, the children might be able to resist you. By age 14, my father and I were equally matched, and by age 16, he wouldnt have held long against me.
Im no parent, but these seem to work well while babysitting (my sisters and I have gotten 'unruly children' to behave when their parents thought it was impossible. Its also how I was raised.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-03 02:39 am (UTC)The first time I remember being told by my father that he was proud of me was the day that I graduated high school. And though my mother told me that often, she wasn't the one I was always trying to impress.
When it came to discipline, dad would yell or reach for his belt first. Mom was the one that would count, then carry through if we still misbehaved.
Sometimes, in cases such as my brother and I fighting, she would take up the novel idea of letting us punish each other. She did this by taking us out to an area near our home where willows grew and having us each pick out a willow switch for her to swat the other with. My brother always picked big ones, thinking they would hurt more, while I picked out the long, thin ones that hurt the most. I don't think he ever figured that part out...
I still believe firmly in physical discipline, but I honestly feel it should be for scenarios where the child was putting their or anothers life in danger. Things like grabbing a child out of a busy street, then spanking them for going into it alone, but explaining to them why they got spanked, too.
Judging by my own experiences growing up, sometimes the lessons that stay with you best are the painful ones.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 07:22 pm (UTC)What I do remember was that I watched my two older siblings and what they did right.
I never had problems with snooping parents either. I still am not sure if my parents really know who I am. Some months ago my mom came across one of my drawings. She was a bit stunned and asked if I had made that one. I said 'yes' and she said 'oh'. End of convo. I wonder if she ever knew that my drawing teacher in school wanted me to apply to art school. I doubt I ever told her.
I am a parent myself now and some things I have learn from my own childhood to avoid when it comes to how I treat my kids. But most of it is common knowledge and what feels right and seems to work.
You really don't need to be quiet, Nerwen. You have the right to your opinions. I think we come from different cultures when it comes to spanking kids.
I have never been spanked (except for that one time my mom lost her temper). I have no friends who got spanked. No neighborhood kids as far as I know. It is really not a method that even comes in mind when it comes to my kids. With a good explanation they often get why they shouldn't behave like they did. People that tell kids that they are to young to understand got it all wrong. Kids DO understand. Even very very young kids. Kids understand a larger amount of words than they actually can say themselves.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-04 06:09 am (UTC)There's a great book, Mirabile by Janet Kagan, which describes a human colony on another planet that does have full-time "raisers" who are in charge of raising all of the children. I've always thought that was a good idea. Let the people who are naturally good parents do all of the parenting, while those who should have no business being near children should go do things that they're good for.
I'm getting a bit scattered by trying to discuss things in both this thread and Mace's. Think I'll work on a new entry to restate my updated opinions on everything...
no subject
Date: 2006-08-09 03:09 am (UTC)