On parental discipline
Aug. 1st, 2006 11:31 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
nerwengreenSo I've been getting into a number of arguments today about the proper ways to discipline children and teach them how to behave. I've read through Mace's posts and the comments on them. And I've been thinking.
Here's where I stood before: Children need to be disciplined from time to time. This happens by associating something unpleasant with the doing of something bad. One of the possible unpleasant things is physical punishment. There are a large number of other forms of punishment, such as isolation ("go to your room!" or other forms of timeouts), denial of something (favorite toys, allowance money, going places, food, etc.), stern lectures, etc. To my mind, physical punishment (spankings) are perfectly valid methods in the list of choices. Which discipline method is used should depend on what the child is like. Not everything will apply equally well to all children.
As with any tool, there are ways to use discipline methods properly and also ways to abuse them. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological manipulation and torment, neglect and abandonment, etc. can all happen. It all depends on how and why the parent is doing them.
However, I've never had children of my own. Nor do I spend much time around them. I tend to relate better to teenagers overall, because by that point they have reached a level of maturity that I can speak to. So I don't really know about children younger than that.
In light of a comment on Mace's last post, I started thinking over my own childhood again. How exactly was I ever disciplined? What worked on me? Well, the more I think about it, the harder it is to answer that, because ... I don't think I was ever disciplined properly. Nothing worked. I remember being punished a lot, but I can't think of a single example where I actually learned anything. Why?
Well, let's start with physical punishment. First of all, you're not supposed to hit the child out of anger and frustration, because that's parental venting, not parental teaching. My parents had a tendency to go after me with a stick (any stick within easy grabbing distance; could've been a toy, could've been a broom, could've been wooden or plastic or metal...), and sometimes they left bruises. I usually knew why they were mad, but the fact that they were trying to beat the crap out of me mostly just made me resent them. Which was obvious in my eyes, and which just made them want to beat me all the more. This is not, to my mind, the way it's supposed to work.
At one point they remarked that my sister escaped punishment because she would capitulate almost immediately and burst into tears. I wasn't interested in that kind of emotional manipulation, even knowing that it was possible. Tried it once, it worked, left a bad aftertaste. So I took the severe beatings instead, and kept my sense of integrity.
When we were very young, there was the "throw out of the house" ploy. Basically, if we were too loud talking to each other after we had allegedly gone to bed, my father would show up and try to throw us out of the house. He would pick us up bodily, and we would cling to doorways and such while pleading for mercy. We would capitulate before he actually reached the back door. This didn't work for long, though, because we eventually caught on that he was never serious. My sister says that he actually did put us outside once, and locked the back door, whereupon we ran to the front door and had to beg our way back in.
There was one other time when I was older (7 or 8, I think), and got put out with the trash. I forget what I did, but I distinctly remember standing there in my winter coat, waiting for the trashman to take me away. When the trashman finally arrived, he thought I was standing out there to greet him and he let me back inside, whereupon I snuck back up to my room while my father was busy talking to him... I don't recall whether I learned anything that time, either.
Then there were the stern lectures. Or the yelling, to be more accurate. And the taking away of things. I remember a few times where I actually tried to tell my mother directly how it made me feel, that all it was doing was making me think of ways to circumvent her, and what exactly would have the desired effect. Of course, all that did was make her more angry. :p And sadly, I can no longer remember the details anymore, other than the fact that I was right and still am. :p
And then in my teen years, there was the return of the "throw out of the house" ploy. I was threatened with eviction and homelessness rather frequently. It never actually happened, but in the back of my mind I was always trying to plan for contingencies in case it ever did.
I guess overall, what I really wanted (and needed) was good, clear explanations of everything. My parents never explained anything to me, discipline or otherwise. Everything was "you're too young to understand and/or care about that." And the older I got, the less clear things became.
Oh wait. I do remember what I said to my mother. I was talking about strategic rewards. Reward for good behavior instead of punish for bad. She didn't go for that one, because she has a philosophy that you don't reward people for doing what they're supposed to do. I guess in practice, what happened was that we were ignored if we were behaving, and given attention (even negative attention) when misbehaving.
And now that I think about that one some more, that makes sense. There was a point in time when I was around seven or so, when my parents suddenly started saying "We're not going to spoil you anymore!" I still don't know where that came from. Maybe someone important said something to them that hit home. All I remember, though, is that all the love went out of the family around then. They stopped caring about anything I did that was positive and right.
I kept a lot of journals as a teenager. Most other people seem to have problems with parents snooping, reading it while the teenager isn't looking, etc. Sometimes being emotionally blackmailed as a result. I didn't have those problems. My parents didn't even know I had them. They just didn't care about me as a person, at all. All they wanted was for me to play the role of "good kid" and that was all.
Anyway. To see if I can come up with some kind of organized conclusion to all this, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm about as far from being a good person to ask about disciplining children as one can get. I sure didn't see any good examples of discipline when I was a child, and I'm not a parent now. And therefore, perhaps none of my opinions should be viewed as valid. Instead I'll go into "be quiet and listen mode" for the duration.
Here's where I stood before: Children need to be disciplined from time to time. This happens by associating something unpleasant with the doing of something bad. One of the possible unpleasant things is physical punishment. There are a large number of other forms of punishment, such as isolation ("go to your room!" or other forms of timeouts), denial of something (favorite toys, allowance money, going places, food, etc.), stern lectures, etc. To my mind, physical punishment (spankings) are perfectly valid methods in the list of choices. Which discipline method is used should depend on what the child is like. Not everything will apply equally well to all children.
As with any tool, there are ways to use discipline methods properly and also ways to abuse them. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, psychological manipulation and torment, neglect and abandonment, etc. can all happen. It all depends on how and why the parent is doing them.
However, I've never had children of my own. Nor do I spend much time around them. I tend to relate better to teenagers overall, because by that point they have reached a level of maturity that I can speak to. So I don't really know about children younger than that.
In light of a comment on Mace's last post, I started thinking over my own childhood again. How exactly was I ever disciplined? What worked on me? Well, the more I think about it, the harder it is to answer that, because ... I don't think I was ever disciplined properly. Nothing worked. I remember being punished a lot, but I can't think of a single example where I actually learned anything. Why?
Well, let's start with physical punishment. First of all, you're not supposed to hit the child out of anger and frustration, because that's parental venting, not parental teaching. My parents had a tendency to go after me with a stick (any stick within easy grabbing distance; could've been a toy, could've been a broom, could've been wooden or plastic or metal...), and sometimes they left bruises. I usually knew why they were mad, but the fact that they were trying to beat the crap out of me mostly just made me resent them. Which was obvious in my eyes, and which just made them want to beat me all the more. This is not, to my mind, the way it's supposed to work.
At one point they remarked that my sister escaped punishment because she would capitulate almost immediately and burst into tears. I wasn't interested in that kind of emotional manipulation, even knowing that it was possible. Tried it once, it worked, left a bad aftertaste. So I took the severe beatings instead, and kept my sense of integrity.
When we were very young, there was the "throw out of the house" ploy. Basically, if we were too loud talking to each other after we had allegedly gone to bed, my father would show up and try to throw us out of the house. He would pick us up bodily, and we would cling to doorways and such while pleading for mercy. We would capitulate before he actually reached the back door. This didn't work for long, though, because we eventually caught on that he was never serious. My sister says that he actually did put us outside once, and locked the back door, whereupon we ran to the front door and had to beg our way back in.
There was one other time when I was older (7 or 8, I think), and got put out with the trash. I forget what I did, but I distinctly remember standing there in my winter coat, waiting for the trashman to take me away. When the trashman finally arrived, he thought I was standing out there to greet him and he let me back inside, whereupon I snuck back up to my room while my father was busy talking to him... I don't recall whether I learned anything that time, either.
Then there were the stern lectures. Or the yelling, to be more accurate. And the taking away of things. I remember a few times where I actually tried to tell my mother directly how it made me feel, that all it was doing was making me think of ways to circumvent her, and what exactly would have the desired effect. Of course, all that did was make her more angry. :p And sadly, I can no longer remember the details anymore, other than the fact that I was right and still am. :p
And then in my teen years, there was the return of the "throw out of the house" ploy. I was threatened with eviction and homelessness rather frequently. It never actually happened, but in the back of my mind I was always trying to plan for contingencies in case it ever did.
I guess overall, what I really wanted (and needed) was good, clear explanations of everything. My parents never explained anything to me, discipline or otherwise. Everything was "you're too young to understand and/or care about that." And the older I got, the less clear things became.
Oh wait. I do remember what I said to my mother. I was talking about strategic rewards. Reward for good behavior instead of punish for bad. She didn't go for that one, because she has a philosophy that you don't reward people for doing what they're supposed to do. I guess in practice, what happened was that we were ignored if we were behaving, and given attention (even negative attention) when misbehaving.
And now that I think about that one some more, that makes sense. There was a point in time when I was around seven or so, when my parents suddenly started saying "We're not going to spoil you anymore!" I still don't know where that came from. Maybe someone important said something to them that hit home. All I remember, though, is that all the love went out of the family around then. They stopped caring about anything I did that was positive and right.
I kept a lot of journals as a teenager. Most other people seem to have problems with parents snooping, reading it while the teenager isn't looking, etc. Sometimes being emotionally blackmailed as a result. I didn't have those problems. My parents didn't even know I had them. They just didn't care about me as a person, at all. All they wanted was for me to play the role of "good kid" and that was all.
Anyway. To see if I can come up with some kind of organized conclusion to all this, I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm about as far from being a good person to ask about disciplining children as one can get. I sure didn't see any good examples of discipline when I was a child, and I'm not a parent now. And therefore, perhaps none of my opinions should be viewed as valid. Instead I'll go into "be quiet and listen mode" for the duration.
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no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 08:03 am (UTC)Not everyone has been a parent, but we've all been children.
If we can remember what it felt like for us then, and, more importantly, what would have worked then, we can learn from the mistakes of the former generation and have a good handle on avoiding them with our own kids.
So don't worry about listening and being quiet. Your opinion is just as valid, especially since you even offered an option I had forgotten about.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-02 06:12 pm (UTC)After continuing to talk about it to yet more people, someone else noted that most people end up being parents that are heavily influenced by their own parents, whether they want to be or not. They either do the same things, or they do the exact opposite, depending on how they felt about their childhood experiences. But their own children might not be like them, and therefore whatever they end up doing may still not be quite right.
Meanwhile, I've thought some more about my own experiences. I think for me it's more that once the punishment started, my focus shifted from "what did I do wrong?" to "How do I get out of this present situation?" and by the time things were over, whatever I'd done in the first place was the last thing on my mind. Instead I would be thinking about "what if I really did get thrown out, what would I do and where would I go?" Or, as happened quite often during the Beatings with the Nearest Stick phase, we would spend a lot of time hiding all the sticks and leaving out only soft objects, in preparation for the next parental storm. Which we never knew when it would happen. I made sure there was a crack between my bed and the wall that was big enough for me to dive into, so that it was harder to hit me. Stuff like that.
So basically, I can't remember any of the reasons behind the punishments because there was never really an association formed between "bad thing done" and "resulting punishment." This is not what should happen during discipline.
On the other hand, I have other memories where the link was very clear between "me doing something" and "resulting unpleasant thing." For example, one time I was sick and threw up in the middle of the night. My mother made me clean it up, even though all I wanted to do was curl up somewhere. Also she turned on all the lights so that my siblings were awake and therefore they were aware of what was going on (we all slept in the same bedroom) which I found humiliating. She didn't do these things to punish, I don't think, just that it was expedient to have the lights on and she didn't want to clean up the puke herself. But thereafter, I was always rather panic-stricken about making it to a toilet before anything came up.
no subject
Date: 2006-08-03 02:29 am (UTC)